June 18, 2018
Attending: Yalor, Griff, Vojtech, Oz, Lorelei, Lindsay, Kay, Deam, Kris, Edu Check-in: some excited and some not excited to have this conversation, some wish it could have happened in cardona, looking to discuss fundamentals/principles involved rather than nuts and bolts of specific scenarios that manifested from these tensions Logistics: Run like a gov meeting but no proposals or tensions or objections or clarifying questions, just round robin reaction rounds. Left early: Vojtech (returned), Kay, Edu
- Goals of Giveth and Goals of the Giveth DApp sharing round
- Transparency around funds Giveth has
- Transparency debate, where do we draw the line
- Transparency around funds used for Giveth’s goals
- Dealing with the economic power imbalance, ideas
Backstory: Griff has been throwing funds around in a "shadow economy" to keep giveth going (event costs, reward dao, hiring lindsay and lorelei and bowen), all things he wishes he could donate directly to, but since it's not possible with the current DApp, he's been paying people off the books and picking up costs from gov funds which has lead to him running out of funds in gov circle (is now in the negative), and is requesting a loan split from the 3 other circles until he can reimburse them with direct donations once the donate function of the DApp works. Yalor - We didn't know why a circle ran out of money, is this setting a precedent for the future that if a circle runs out of money all the others will pick up the slack? Are we using the advice process?
1. Goals of Giveth and Goals of the Giveth DApp sharing round.
Griff: Goal of the dapp: To enable people to create contribute and support decentralized blockchain based non profit organizations, a key problem we hope to solve is showing people exactly what their Donations are spent on.
Goal of Giveth: To support the projects that use blockchain to make the world a better place that need support, in an altruistic manner. We will be the first dac on the giveth dac.
Oz: Bring new donation expereince to the world.
Yalor: Goal of Giveth I agree with griff, support the projects that use blockchain to make the world a better place: #blockchain4good Needs to be better defined, what actions can we take to make #blockchain4good a reality
Goal of DApp I dont know... im just here to support, what does the community think?
Linds: It'a clear what the goals for the DApp is, we need to
Vojtech: DApp: To allow everyone to raise funds no matter where you are.
Giveth: to support open source not for profit organizations
Kay: G-O-D: A way for people to raise money to support projects they want to support. G-O-G: Facilatation of the DApp, helping open source developement overall. Giveth is a bit undefinable
DEAM: No strong opinions
Kris: G-O-D: a completely free, open-source platform for DACs, a disrupting force that can decentralize and facilitate altruism. G-O-G: Giveth is a Decentralized Altruistic Community focused on using blockchain technology to make the world a better place. #Blockchain4Good. Working on many things but they are all centered around the DApp. Bigger then the DApp, but it all relies on the DApp as a foundation. All the elements are working together from all circles. see this for more info: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NbdshyZEATW0N7C5_lYIozodvwe8F7pPn5SZfDOKG1Q/edit
how are we practically using the dapp, there is tension between using it ourselves vs making it for other people.
G-O-D: not clear on the goals
Can't tell what the goal of the Dapp is. He here to support, with no strong opinion. Community thoughts on Dapp? Many divided opinions about the goal of the Dapp.
Goal of Giveth, Block chain for good. what is blockchain for good? What is in that category? What actions can be taken to make it a reality?
Vojtech: Goal od the Dapp is to retain transprency and accountability. Goal of Giveth is to aupport open source and non-profit org trying to do good in the world
Kay: Everyone to be able to raise money fora cause and anyone can give to a cause they want to be solved Giveth as a community, helping Dapp team and building Dapp. Provide support through marketing, etc. Anything that helps people, helps us first. Giveth is undefinable.
Deam: Agree with eveyrone else
Kris: Agree with previous statement. (Shared mission statement) Giveth is blockchain for good, important that everything DAC does (SC, GOV, COMM, ) all centered around Dapp. Altruism, decentralization, community. All areas connected. GOV is big, working on decentralized GOV around the Dapp. All elements are to support Dapp.
Lorelei: We know goals of Giveth and Dapp. How we use it is our bigger goal. For public and to ourselves is the tension. Core value of Giveth, humanism is saying we are responsible for fixing ourselves first. Cant save something outside of me if Im not fixing that internally. Dapp for other vs ourselves. Confusion around day to day goals of the Dapp.
2. Transparency around funds Giveth has
Griff: ETH in the multisig (not counting donations in the last 5 days) 65.23276348 Migration Campaign -1.155865082 Giveth Governance 81.41790295 Giveth DApp Development 44.33491909 Social Coding 23.71119626 Giveth Communications Circle
Funds we have that will be able to be added to the pot when we have implemented the dapp:
Total: A little more than 200,000 EUR (437 ETH and $17,000 worth of tokens) THIS IS: 300 ETH (in the Donation Doubler) Griff Solicited from Berns inc. Pegged for Audits and Security (I made the deal, i promised to use it for security and audits as a matching program, I think we can use this for Bridge Security costs, that's Bowens salary the next few weeks, and should be a big bump to the DApp team too.. basically any cost incurred for security can be 50% reimbursed by these funds.) 125 ETH (In a hardware wallet I control) Griff Solicited from MKR Audit , slotted for Delegation by me (as DAC Delegate) when we have DApp working) 12 ETH (In a hardware wallet I control) Griff Solicited from Aragon Audit , slotted for Delegation by me (as DAC Delegate) when we have DApp working) We have $17,000+ worth of tokens in our multisig that we will have to play with when we add those tokens to whitelist in the DApp. Griff as a Safety Net.
Reactions: Vojtech: All funds accounted for. Maintain clarity of funds
Kay: Would have been nice to see this prior. ETH price at mid-point. Circle breakdown of funds: where the mess lies. Should have discussed this earlier. SC has no clear budget leads. GOV was supporting SC and should have spent SC funds. We probably spent too much funds on the DApp
Deam: SC has not used funds for anything yet. Agree with Kay
Oz: Nothing to add. Nice to see full picture. Are we expecting tensions? Did SC spend too much money
Linds: Another thing discussed was doing a lead discussion once a month... there should be general and open budget talks who is running this we need more communication between the people in control of these funds
Kris: Needed to see available funds. Good to bring clarity, will help. Transparency about funds. We asked Griff is we had questions, but should have been openly available. Could think theres abuse. We should have it written and out there
Yalor: All new to me. Had no idea these numbers were there. Knowing how much money is available is important. Well documented and available. What is the future and how long will we last, how much money can we spend on things. Are numbers accurate? If poeple haven't been collecting milestones? Should we hold milestones long term? Milestones expired? Advice process. This agreement may be loose between circle leads. If this is Giveth money we need the advice process about plan for money. Consesus among people. Money is not in control of the community, could create uncertainty. Need roadmap of funds.
-Griff is angel donor and lead of GOV circle. Where is accountability if Griff donates and decides what gets funded. No check of power; can fund anything and just donate to cover. Avoid collusion. Decisions should be made by community
Edu: Just arrived, no comment
Lorelei: All points are specific except for Griff as safety net. Griff said he will fund anything. Feel unclear about process of who decides what and when we need donations from Griff. What happens if Griff decides he doesn't want to fund anything.
Griff: Dont see reason why community needs to be involved with how someone spends money. Advice process for shared resources only. Personal funds can be transparent, do what you want with your money. Fuzzy line between Griff $ and Giveth $. People that want to help can, and those that dont wont. I want to use decentralized software to donate my money. Why can community be entitled to tell me where I spend my money?
-Vojtech: Dont depend on one centralized party. Want to clarify moving forward decentralized, transparent.
3. Transparency debate, where do we draw the line
Griff: I think i should be able to decide 100% where my funds are spent and how. Donations to Giveth from outside sources or from me that end up in the multisig or in the system at all should be traced.
Campaign mgrs are going to be donors with Dapp is live. Entitlement over my funds within Giveth. Money makes people scared and reactive. I cannot donate to campaign or milestone. Will only use Dapp when I can. Every donation should not be split between circles, temporary, for current budget reasons. Should have had more transparency around split of funds. Dont need to debate budget, we will have Dapp soon and can delegate funds/donations directly.
Yalor: Not trying to decide where other people spend their money. The confusion coming from donor and campaign lead is creating tension and confusion. How should each circle deal with these policies and funds.
Thought request was funds were a loan and not a donation. Had no clarity on tension.
Oz: Confused. People are just agreeing. Griff being angel donor and lead could be a problem with extra power of adding money. Where is the disagreement?
Kris: No issue with Griff being cirlce lead and donor. Tension will clear and change with Dapp. Running out of money, what happens without Griff donating? Grants, Aragon, extra funds from Griff's initiatives. Issue with not enough money doesn't exist, have Aragon money coming in. Why such a fuss?
Lorelei: Oz: The actual proposal for Griff to pay our salaries and things for griff to pay the balance of governance's debt was agreed to
Linds I think this is only an issue if there needs to be a date to pay back loan. there are deeper discussions that need to be made, we need a team role meeting made by the circle leads so that this stuff can be better
Kay: Sad that V left, i wish we had the dapp team here. Griff, people are more worried about the wording people are fighting for things and the real issues are not probably being discussed. I would love to see more technical solutions out. We can't tell people how to use our funds. Griff being the safty net shouldnt really be transparent
Deam: Agree with Linds, on going issue.
4. Transparency around funds used for Giveth
Griff: What is our goal with transparency and where do we draw the line. I have had a lot of difficulties being transparent with what i want to do with giveth because we have implemented a short term solution and that solution. I am excited about supporting this project and guiding this project because i want to be transparent with all that i do… but right now with the tech we have, this isn’t possible, feasible or smart to do:
Things we use the dapp for now that I wish I could donate directly to:
RewardDAO Event costs Salaries Bounties ScalingNOW! Like campaigns. Pretty much everything we use the dapp for
Things I would like to use the dapp for, but have to wait:
Firebase, domain names and other random costs like this Lindsay and Lorelei team meals other people's expenses (Adam’s flights) donations to other projects and charities money given to people as bonuses bounties office expenses (monitors, furniture, a pool, a castle?) all things burning man
the cost of my flights and hotels money given to my family and friends
Would prefer not to:
money I use to buy into an ico, my holdings in general my day to day costs
Griff: Need the Dapp to do what I want to do with funds and for Giveth.
Vojtech: Circles decide what they spend money on and not Giveth as a whole.
Kris: All agree on what can be expensed for each circle. Circles with less money cannot expense as much.
Oz: Everyone is a Giveth donor, even with just time. Spent personal money to support Giveth. Giveth may not be long term career platform for us. New and unknown. Be sensitive to others' situations.
Deam: Agree with Oz, no opinions
Kay: Does not invoice all expenses.
Yalor: Dont understand this tension. Dapp isnt working yet.
Linds: This is a discussion about how each of the circles moves money around. this discussion is not a bout fairness and it would be nice if the dapp was working. people need clarity around that
Griff: Decision making isnt group decision if things should be funded. Who has what funds in their control. Should be able to propose anything you want, whether it gets funded or not.
5. Dealing with the power imbalance, ideas:
Griff: I really like satya's idea where everyone gets a certain amount of extra money that they can use to fund other people's projects
Want DAC but dont have tools yet. Want to experiment with DAOs. Create Aragon DAO and practice on mainnet.
Linds: That sounds like fun... i dont have much to throw in on this.
Kay: needs more work to be put in before it can be put in... i think we should just throw away the 48/18/17/16 budget thing... there is the reward dao thing, we could have a meeting about budget every month. we should trust the circles decisions the main imbalance comes fromt he quota that is allocating funds in a static way... it would be better to more accountability but we need an event to talk about the things to come.
Kris: I like Griff's idea... its similar to unicorn points but uses the dapp which is awesome. I agree with Kay's idea that if we can remove the 48/18/17/16 budget and start to have a budget discussion around. The accountability around the usage of funds is discussed with the team, there seems to be a lack of trust, there needs to be more respect. There was a lack of trust in the loomio... trusting eachother and knowing the needs will help a lot.
Yalor: Happy we are having this conversation, this is a productive discussion, i would be happy to help flesh these things out, we need to not be afraid about having these discussions, put your eth where your trust is! i'm happy to hear lots of feelings around this.. its the start of a bigger conversation.
Oz: The whole point of this is good... there is a cost to R&D, but i have an idea: if there were concrete goals... and time lines. how long should quazia be lead of the social coding circle? there needs to be momentum, and if there were more concrete timelines and milestones that can be proposed with... if i dont like what he is doing, then i could challenge his leadership at the end of the 4 months. if griff needs to be replaced maybe there should be a way. I had one goal, to get the dapp done by devcon. we need accountability with specific goals and specific dates.
Vojtech: difficult to react, experimenting with money and governance, well they should do the expermients, thats the modeling of the dac. when the money is in the dapp people will fund things they see value in, i feel the tension that the budgets dont correspond to the needs of the organization... circle leads make sense but then its like electing people to use the circles. the biggest picture right now is, what creates value and what needs to be done. What needs to be done and what are the steps to do it.
Lorelei: I love these ideas, the proposals that have a regular meeting to discuss budget and regular meetings around circle leads i think that the new people waste time by getting up to speed and addressing an issue without background. Giveth fireside chat. Answering questions and telling the story we need more convos outside the decision making meetings... it will empower people to ask things off line. Satya's ideas is interesting and I would like to hear more about that proposal.
Deam: Social coding has staggered, there are a lot of funds in social coding that really havent been used, the rewardDAO was used more and thats all i need to say.
No notes :-D
These docs were shared in the chat during the meeting: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12EVd8CtEXMZK692TfBUk_4cvoSNkArR4pz04FtIJjwo/edit#gid=1322221160 https://wiki.giveth.io/dac/finances/#expense-claiming https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NbdshyZEATW0N7C5_lYIozodvwe8F7pPn5SZfDOKG1Q/edit